Collaborating with Stylus Labs Write

[Phabbits]

Hello everyone,

I would like to reference another free, partially open-source, note-taking app I have been using for two years now along with Xournal++.

Stylus Labs Write is a handwriting app that takes a different approach to note taking, one which I believe can coexist with Xournal++ goals, and the two projects should be used together for a complete libre solution. Write is a C++, cross-platform (Windows, Mac, Linux, Android, iOS), note taking app which focuses entirely on handwriting manipulation. It varies from Xournal++ by not featuring PDF annotation, text and shape insertion, LaTex, and many other features that Xournal++ offers. It instead however smoothly and efficiently handles handwritten notes.

I have used the two apps together for the past two years at university with Write being my class notes app, and using Xournal++ to do my homework.

In order to offer a better alternative to programs like OneNote, I think Write and Xournal++ should be used together. I have been communicating with the developer, and he has made some of his libraries available on GitHub, and it has always been free. I do not think the Write developer has his input code available, but he was able to use C++ to get smooth input for my N-trig pen on both Linux and Windows.

I really think Xournal++ and Write can work together to provide a complete open source suite, and the two tools do not have to be in competition because their uses differ.

What do you all think?

Write:
Smooth, reliant, low power hand writing app.
+ Tools to manipulate handwritten text
+ Uses HTML and SVG for files
+ Real time collaboration
+ Cross platform
- Partially open source

Xournal++:
Feature packed PDF annotation tool.
+ Can add typed text, shapes, LaTex
+ Extensible with plugins
+ Cross platform
+ Fully open source

[rolandlo]

My personal opinion is that Stylus Labs Write is a simple and nice handwriting app with a pretty UI and some interesting features. Great that the author made some libraries available on GitHub. What License is being used?

I have very little experience with using the app, but it seems plausible that the two apps can complement each other. What kind of collaboration do you envision? Could you be more specific?

[Phabbits]

Hey @rolandlo,

I was thinking they could simply promote each other for a more complete alternative to existing closed source apps like OneNote. As users are switching over from more developed closed source apps, I believe Write can provide simple reliability while Xournal++ develops more features and crash resistance.

Also, I found Write's input system to be flawless with my N-trig pen and maybe something could be transferred over from that. Although from my understanding the issue is more with GTK+ as the GUI, whereas Write has created its own "ugui," so those issues will probably just improve GTK+ improves.

Not sure on the license, I might have to ask.

[rolandlo]

@Phabbits In #2045 we formulated the aim to

Collaborate with developers of different FOSS note-taking software an give cross references

Hence promoting each other (between Xournal++ and Stylus Labs Write) sounds like an interesting idea. A question is, how much FOSS is in Stylus Labs Write. So please ask about the licensing and some specifics of which parts are open-sourced and which part are not (and will not). Then I can discuss the idea with other developers.

[betaprior]

Write is the only inking app on Android that does not lock you into a proprietary format (SVG). It would be amazing if they implemented XOJ support, as their mobile apps are significantly further along than xournalpp mobile. However, if they view this as a business, they might not be excited about helping a competitor. Still worth reaching out to the author, I suppose.

[paucku]

I am being using Styluslabs Write for more than 2 years (I've been a math teacher). I tried Xournal++ many times but couldn't incorporate it in my workflow. Here is why at this moment I still use Write despite that IT IS NOT OPEN SOURCE.

Yes, you read it right – Write is not an open source software. I couldn't find the sources from which I could build it (if you point me to them I will be very thankful).

The main advantages of Styluslabs Write over Xournal++:

1. Supports SVG natively. This is huge. I don't care how "open source" is a program if it uses it's own file format. In 50 years if the project Styluslabs Write dies I will be able to read my big collection of handwritten notes. However, if Xournal++ dies I will have difficulties to convert all of my files.
2. It is more "straighforward" to use. Write may has fewer features but they are so strictly curated that they are the all that I need. It has no drawing shapes or recording audio. It has no typeng text or math fomrulas. The interface does not expose so many (unneeded) options.

The above 1. and 2. are not perfect in Styluslabs Write. Although the file format is SVG if I edit it for example with Inkscape, the file cannot be opened back with Write. Although Write is more starightforward to use I hate it's file browser which drives me crazy.

I personaly do not see how Xournal++ can collaborate with Stylislabs Write. It seems to me that Write goes to the path of commercial software. They already has Android and iOS apps. Probably in some future they will start providing commercial services or they will start to charge for Write.

I am concerned about this and would like to find an alternative to Styluslabs Write. I am keeping an eye on Xournal++ but for now it doesn't do the job I need.

This is what (in my opinion) would make Xournal++ a viable alternative to Styluslabs Write:

1. Become more focused on handwriting. Treat it like a papet notebook – all you need is pen and an idea. Like "If I can draw it by hand, then I don't need that feature". I can draw circles and rectangles by hand. I can write text or math formulas. The only thing I can't do is recording audio. So leave the recording audio feature and drop the others (or, at least, hide them).
2. Make SVG a native option. Not an "export" option.

[mbaz]

After using Write for a couple of days, I don't see myself switching to it. It has some awesome features, like adding vertical space, text reflowing, and bookmarks. But I much prefer Xournal++'s interface, where pens, colors, shapes, etc are at my fingertips instead of several clicks away. For my needs, I can get the same handwritten quality with much less effort using Xournal++.

[Chinchivi]

After using Write for a couple of days, I don't see myself switching to it. It has some awesome features, like adding vertical space, text reflowing, and bookmarks. But I much prefer Xournal++'s interface, where pens, colors, shapes, etc are at my fingertips instead of several clicks away. For my needs, I can get the same handwritten quality with much less effort using Xournal++.

Oh, I would love to have the features you mentioned in xournal++!

[gilkzxc]

I am being using Styluslabs Write for more than 2 years (I've been a math teacher). I tried Xournal++ many times but couldn't incorporate it in my workflow. Here is why at this moment I still use Write despite that IT IS NOT OPEN SOURCE.

Yes, you read it right – Write is not an open source software. I couldn't find the sources from which I could build it (if you point me to them I will be very thankful).

The main advantages of Styluslabs Write over Xournal++:

1. Supports SVG natively. This is huge. I don't care how "open source" is a program if it uses it's own file format. In 50 years if the project Styluslabs Write dies I will be able to read my big collection of handwritten notes. However, if Xournal++ dies I will have difficulties to convert all of my files.
2. It is more "straighforward" to use. Write may has fewer features but they are so strictly curated that they are the all that I need. It has no drawing shapes or recording audio. It has no typeng text or math fomrulas. The interface does not expose so many (unneeded) options.

The above 1. and 2. are not perfect in Styluslabs Write. Although the file format is SVG if I edit it for example with Inkscape, the file cannot be opened back with Write. Although Write is more starightforward to use I hate it's file browser which drives me crazy.

I personaly do not see how Xournal++ can collaborate with Stylislabs Write. It seems to me that Write goes to the path of commercial software. They already has Android and iOS apps. Probably in some future they will start providing commercial services or they will start to charge for Write.

I am concerned about this and would like to find an alternative to Styluslabs Write. I am keeping an eye on Xournal++ but for now it doesn't do the job I need.

This is what (in my opinion) would make Xournal++ a viable alternative to Styluslabs Write:

1. Become more focused on handwriting. Treat it like a papet notebook – all you need is pen and an idea. Like "If I can draw it by hand, then I don't need that feature". I can draw circles and rectangles by hand. I can write text or math formulas. The only thing I can't do is recording audio. So leave the recording audio feature and drop the others (or, at least, hide them).
2. Make SVG a native option. Not an "export" option.

Many, of the major parts of Write, is on github here: https://github.com/styluslabs

[LittleHuba]

Concerning your suggestions for Xournal++ to be a viable alternative to Styluslabs Write:

Become more focused on handwriting. Treat it like a papet notebook – all you need is pen and an idea. Like "If I can draw it by hand, then I don't need that feature". I can draw circles and rectangles by hand. I can write text or math formulas. The only thing I can't do is recording audio. So leave the recording audio feature and drop the others (or, at least, hide them).

This is already possible for quite some time. You can customize the toolbars of Xournal++. See View > Toolbars > Customize

Make SVG a native option. Not an "export" option.

And how would you propose we handle all the additional content, that can not be saved within an SVG? Even though you may not require this content, other users do... If your data is that important, you can simply create a plugin that automatically exports all files to SVG or PDF on saving. You can still edit the original .xopp-File and have a future-proof copy of your notes.

[sanchayanghosh]

Is stylus labs write not similar to xournal++? From the coding style and the UI I felt that stylus labs write is what eventually led to xournal and then xournalpp.

The app is semi - open source, i.e, the libraries are available.

That being said, currently there is an issue integrating stylus labs write with xournalpp, since stylus labs has api calls that are closed source. Btw, would you instead like to see collaborative mode added to xournal++, as in #2548 with an option to export notes to xournalpp from stylus labs write?

Also, to summarize -

1. Here are the features you need -
   a. Manipulate handwritten text (could you raise a FR detailing the type of manipulation you'd like to see. In that you could compare and contrast the already existing features of xournalpp with xournal and stylus labs write. w.r.t. manipulating handwritten text, what options do they have, for example)
   b. Use native SVG and HTML (great idea. You are encouraged to raise a seperate feature request)
   c. Text reflowing options (possible feature request)
   d. Real-time collaboration (see Collaboration mode #2548)
   e. Cross platform(see the Mobile versions of xournalpp, and mac, windows and linux packages for it). They are being worked on.

2. Good to have :
   a. Stylus labs svg manipulation library (hopefully using their own svg libraries they have open sourced). This might prove to be harder than expected, but can be looked into.

[pmaen]

One of my biggest cons for Write was the lack of autosaving. Thankfully the developer helped me out by providing the following solution:

Autosave can be enabled by adding a line like this to the config file (~/.config/styluslabs/write.xml):
<float name="autoSaveInterval" value="120" />
The value is the number of seconds between autosaves.

[thekswenson]

@LittleHuba I have been trying to switch from Write to xournal++ for a few months now. What I need from xournal++ is a replacement for paper, so I wholeheartedly agree with @paucku that I would prefer xournal++ to be focused on handwriting. I think you are claiming that we can do this by changing the interface:

Concerning your suggestions for Xournal++ to be a viable alternative to Styluslabs Write:

Become more focused on handwriting. Treat it like a papet notebook – all you need is pen and an idea. Like "If I can draw it by hand, then I don't need that feature". I can draw circles and rectangles by hand. I can write text or math formulas. The only thing I can't do is recording audio. So leave the recording audio feature and drop the others (or, at least, hide them).

This is already possible for quite some time. You can customize the toolbars of Xournal++. See View > Toolbars > Customize

I've been using a customized toolbar for a few months, yet each time I return to Write it feels like a breath of fresh air. Here are the reasons I think Write's interface is so much better (the main theme is minimizing clicks/taps along with very efficient organization):

A Single Easy Click

1. The buttons of the toolbar are the right size. The buttons are about 30% bigger in Write, and this makes it much easier to hit them with finger or pen when focused on the page. Here is a comparison with my xournal++ toolbar (the tools and colors are in the floating toolbox).
   

2. Each of the buttons is a drag down menu that takes a single click. You put your pen on it and drag down to select the tool or color/style that you want by lifting the pen up.

3. If you choose a tool other than the pen it is activated for a single use (unless you double click). So if I need to select something to move, you click the select tool and then select and move. When the move is done you automatically go back to drawing.

So most things are done with literally a single click on a button that is easy to hit, where you don't even have to click the pen to start writing again.

Xournal++ Interface is Keyboard Oriented

If we want to replace paper, we need xournal++ to be touch and pen oriented. Here are a few of the problems:

1. The floating toolbox is hard to open if you don't have a keyboard. In my setup I have to press the second pen button while I'm near the page to bring it up. Here is an issue asking for finger tap to open the toolbox: Show floating toolbox on touch tap. #3521

2. There is no dropdown menu for choosing a color. I need to either

   • put colors in the floating toolbox,
   • put a button for each color, or
   • do three clicks by clicking on the color chooser button and then selecting the color and then pressing the select button.

3. The same button cannot appear in two places. If I have a button in the toolbox I cannot be the toolbar and vice versa. (Allow a button to appear in multiple toolbars, and possibly multiple times in the same toolbar #3613)

4. There is no easy way to open the sidebar with the page thumbnails. (Make toolbar button to show sidebar #3612)

5. Any of the dropdown menus, like the eraser dropdown require two clicks. You can't hold the pen down and drag to choose the tool.

The general principal is that everything should be trivial to do with a finger or pen, with the minimum number of clicks!

Nice features like text reflowing are secondary to the primary user experience IMHO.