Skirmishers - Feudal Law vs. Empathy for All Outrage timing

[yggdrasilsYeoman]

It was recently confirmed that Outrage for Empathy for All triggers only after all hits are dealt.. This is of course perfectly consistent with the card's reminder text, and is now clarified to be an extension of a general rule that hits are dealt simultaneously.

On intuition, one might think Feudal Law Outrage resolves the same way. It's the same type of trigger, and there is reminder text saying to resolve it "before raiding." However, some have construed this as guaranteeing an earlier timing window for this Outrage at battle step 2, "Choose Defender."

While it's true that "choosing as a defender" is harm, if that timing were proper for battle-induced Outrage without special reminder text, then Empathy for All would necessarily Provoke Outrage before dealing hits, not after. This implies that defender choice alone is not good enough to trigger harm, timing-wise. There is currently no plain rules text justifying these two being distinct timing triggers. However, the recent answer on Feudal Law and Sycophants appeared to tacitly confirm "Choose Defender" is the trigger... Sort of. Whether Sycophants triggers in step 2 or 4, the ships still miss the step 1 window to be "attacking ships," so the OP's assumption about Feudal Law timing did not need to be correct to reach the result for that issue.

This makes a difference for Skirmishers. If you provoke Weapon Outrage by battling under Feudal Law or Empathy for All, there's no doubt you lose Skirmishers before the end of the battle. However, if you Provoke in step 2, in accordance with the alternative timing for Feudal Law, you will lose Skirmishers and not get your reroll. If you Provoke in step 4 after dealing hits, as guaranteed by Empathy for All, of course you've already gotten your reroll. I see this distinction as being unnecessarily confusing, especially in Warden v. Pacifist games, and unjustified by RAW.

I would suggest there be an FAQ stating that the Outrage timing for Feudal Law is not just before raiding, but after dealing hits as well, exactly as with Empathy for All, unless the intent branches in a different direction.

[yggdrasilsYeoman]

https://discord.com/channels/476234833572397056/963112189802201108/1320065867421188210

This rationale was discussed as a reason to differentiate Feudal Law Outrage from Empathy for all.

[turmoilbyrd]

The suggestion here is to add an FAQ entry for Feudal Law

Q: When does the outrage trigger?
A: It triggers before rolling dice

[turmoilbyrd]

Now that I realized there is an implicit rule linking harming pieces to harming its player, I can see a world where the Outrage from Feudal Law doesn't happen at the time of declaring defender, but when a hit actually occurs (so, in line with city outrage and Empathy for All)

• Breaking World should be blocked by Armistice and Truce #101

@jdyearsley can decide if that's the intended timing. It's fine to keep it as written as well.